Worst Case Scenario

[thetrusteeco]

I have a question to the group that will probably get Kris real mad at me, so Kris (if you read this) and everyone else, please ready my question carefully before answering.  It is specific.

If KBKP Software does go bankrupt or just abandons HostBill, what do we do? 

Obviously some will just got to Blesta, UberSmith, WHMCS, etc., depending on their business needs.  However, I have read on WHT that some feel justified in decoding HostBill and taking over maintenance. (Please don't implicate yourself if this is something you think is illegal. For the record I wouldn't consider it unless KBKP Software disappears.)

Has anyone checked on the legality of this?  Obviously jurisdictions have different laws. I'm not actually looking for "free legal advice" here, just opinions. Has anyone spoken to a lawyer about this in any country? Would it be a worthwhile endeavour?

I'm pretty sure decoding the software and using it would be legal in most countries outside of the Berne Convention, but that doesn't help unless you're in Vietnam, Kazakhstan, Ethiopia, etc.  You could even legally re-brand it and resell it (Calling all Vietnamese scammers! - Just a joke.)

However we (who purchased HostBill) did enter into a legal agreement with Kris (KBKP Software) regarding use of his software, which included "Owned HostBill licenses are perpetual, so you can continue using it without active updates or support access." (At least he isn't overselling the support.) Therefore if KBKP Software disappears do we have the right to decode it and keep going?

If it is legal, has anyone discussed creating a Open-Source style development team for pre-existing owners?  Would anyone actually be interested in this? Or would everyone just go elsewhere? 

The fact is I like HostBill, and don't actually want to go elsewhere.  If Kris gets KBKP Software in order, kills the bugs, and 3rd Party developers come on-board, I'll drop WHMCS, and buy some more HB licenses (2 minimum) even at 5 times the price.  In fact I'd do it quick because once we stop complaining about HostBill's bugs, Kris will unleash that price-increase impulse of his again.

[Lawrence]

Just some things to understand,

• It is illegal to decode HostBill.
• Decoding is only legal when the source is released, but only versions which the source is made available.
• Anyone who obtains HostBill through another individual other than through the download link provided by HostBill possesses an illegal copy, so even nations not part of the Berne Convention would be possessing an illegal copy..

And this is how to make it legal.

• Module / Plugins that migrate data from the MySQL database to the new billing platform.
• Synchronizing data from a valid HostBill install with a valid alternate billing platform manually, or automatically. (Difficult)

With that said, I want to emphasize that this forum is for legal purposes only. I'm not a lawyer, so this is not legal advice, just what I understand. Anyone with legal certifications care to reply?

And finally, I can assure you that KBKP Software isn't going to go bankrupt. I have absolutely no statements to back this other than what I know, but remember that KBKP Software is after all a software company, there aren't a lot of expenses associated outside of the following.

• Server Costs
• Developer Time
• Office Space
• Other minor expenses (server software, firewall, security, etc,.)

I'd assume if Kris sells 3-4 HostBill licenses a month, he's in a good position. He sells more than that though.

[UCG_Keith]

In the US, if Hostbill (aka Quality Software) and they were a US company would go bankrupt, the trustee would have the duty to determine what would happen to the software.  Bankruptcy court would also not allow the "hacking" of the software.  So, as Lawrence stated, it would still be illegal to decode the software.

I am not as confident as Lawrence as to the status of Quality Software (Host Bill) but as every good business owner should do is to always prepare for the worse and have a plan of action in place for such events.

If I were looking for a billing solution such as HostBill today; I honestly would say that by doing my due diligence you couldn't convince me that they were worthy of managing my clients.  I say that based on a quick google search of Hostbill.  The lack of support is everywhere.  Why would 4-5 people spend $999 for an application that has a lot of complaints from current users of the lack of support.  The MIA of the "primary" developer and owner, the company has removed the only tool to for public support. 

Would any of us consider them today?  If so, please convince me!

Cheers,
Keith

[Patrick]

In Canada, since our agreement was an "owned" license a.k.a. Lifetime license if he were to shutdown and the license server disrupts our day to day business tasks, we can take any means we need to ensure the stability of our business, we just have to be prepared to provide proof that he went under.  I believe this is law everywhere on a software you purchased and now own.  I do have some law experience but i'm not bar certified as i dropped out many moons ago.

Microsoft for example have an important clause in their user agreement.  Your copy of windows is good for the hardware it's attached to.  If hardware fails on OEM versions then so does your license.  So Kris would need to be far more specific in his agreements and define far more than he does now

Hostbill even out of business owns the intellectual property rights of the brand and software.  We cannot resell it as our own.  Other then that if them going under were to as i said above halt your daily operations and they were truly out of business (not a server offline) then you are well within your rights as you do own it.  It all depends on what is in the user agreement upon purchase.  Unfortunately if her went out of business reverse engineering it is the only way we can continue to support our customers and not alienate them and go under ourselves it is our legal right to do what we have to.  Even if that means decoding to move to another software. 

Again, it's a broad area, far too many if, ands or buts.

That said, he's in Poland, without government support or offices in whatever country he wouldn't be able to do anything other then file a report and local police would further investigate if they feel it's even worth their time.  DMCA can only request and hope for cooperation.  Same goes for in the states, he'd need government willingness and a local DA willing to even acknowledge it.  Look how hard it is for american companies to sue abroad.  It's very difficult and you have to have inter-agency cooperation

edit:

I wanted to specify that i do not condone this.  Only way we would ever do it ourselves is if Kris truly shutdown and we had no access to our admin area.  If access to admin was restricted and we had orders/tickets and customers to maintain, it is imperceptive to our future business to gain access so as to avoid looking like total fools to our customers. 

I should also state, i highly doubt the speculation going around of HB going out of business.  maintaining a server is mere pennies these days, especially since he's not running a hosting business, he's just a software developer.  Odds in our software going offline is slim to none, but i can't predict the future but if i were to "assume" i'd go with that.

[thetrusteeco]

Thanks for the feedback. I know it's a touchy subject and wasn't sure how people would respond.

I'm not condoning it either.  I'm not promoting it.  I'm certainly not doing it right now (why would I? I own the license).  I am looking an my options.  Currently I have not found anything on the market that has HostBill's potential.  I want Kris to fix the core, and 3rd Party developers to build on that.

I am concerned about KBKP Software (or Quality software), and also about Kris.  I think Kris is a bright guy who works 20 hours a day, 7 days a week, and doesn't understand business, or get why people might be mad at him for suddenly raising the price to $1000 a year after someone in the forum suggested it.

But this is a worst-case scenario.  I am curious about what everyone is considering, Uber, Blesta, decoding...  You must be thinking about your options.  If HostBill is resting on Kris' shoulders, what happens if he dies (remember Ligesh)?  I wish Kris a long happy life, but, worse case scenario...

Hopefully he can hire some more developers, build his company, and this becomes an irrelevant thread.

[Patrick]

Thanks for the feedback. I know it's a touchy subject and wasn't sure how people would respond.

I'm not condoning it either.  I'm not promoting it.  I'm certainly not doing it right now (why would I? I own the license).  I am looking an my options.  Currently I have not found anything on the market that has HostBill's potential.  I want Kris to fix the core, and 3rd Party developers to build on that.

I am concerned about KBKP Software (or Quality software), and also about Kris.  I think Kris is a bright guy who works 20 hours a day, 7 days a week, and doesn't understand business, or get why people might be mad at him for suddenly raising the price to $1000 a year after someone in the forum suggested it.

But this is a worst-case scenario.  I am curious about what everyone is considering, Uber, Blesta, decoding...  You must be thinking about your options.  If HostBill is resting on Kris' shoulders, what happens if he dies (remember Ligesh)?  I wish Kris a long happy life, but, worse case scenario...

Hopefully he can hire some more developers, build his company, and this becomes an irrelevant thread.

Well to be fair, one of the topics on the forums was me who started a topic about raising the price to a more realistic number, but $1000 wasn't where i was heading by any means.  At the time it was $199 for a license.  I was suggesting $399 or $499 to keep the kids away.  $999 is a bit nuts right now as as advertised functions do not..... well function.  I was absolutely not implying that you were condoning it but i had to ensure i put a little "disclaimer" to my post for any new visitors to see this personally.

There really is no reason to do this unless as stated above.  After all, we all have customers we need to take care of and if we're locked out of running our business due to him shutting down, what other recourse do you have?  Legally, no one would touch you if this scenario came to light and only if he went under and our licenses couldn't communicate with the license server anymore

[thetrusteeco]

...

• It is illegal to decode HostBill.
• Decoding is only legal when the source is released, but only versions which the source is made available.
• Anyone who obtains HostBill through another individual other than through the download link provided by HostBill possesses an illegal copy, so even nations not part of the Berne Convention would be possessing an illegal copy..

...

Hey Lawrence,

Thanks for this.  I wasn't sure about license transferability.  I did read the agreement a couple years ago, and thought it was not permitted, but I've seen people stating they've resold thier licenses in WHT.  I thought maybe Kris updated the policy.  I'll have to redact something I posted in another thread...

However I don't understand how it applies in a non-Berne convention country.  Only the local laws apply.  Vietnamese or Kazakhstanians can crack, use, and even resell the software if the local government refuses to recognize Polish/EU copyrights.  However in neither case could the cracker resell it as "HostBill" because both countries are members of the Madrid system and recognize Polish/EU Trademarks.  Nevertheless, they could sell it under another name.  This is how so much cloned software comes out of Vietnam.

This is meant as academic speculation, not a suggested business model for anyone.  Who in their right mind would buy billing software from someone that is stealing code?

"Hmmm ... you're a thief you say, and you what to provide me with the software that will manage my customer's credit cards?  ... real cheap?"

[Paul]

People have offered to fix things for him. Like with the WHMCS import module, we said, open up the source code to us, and we'll fix it for you, for free, since he clearly didn't have the time or want to. Logically, how could this possibly have been a bad idea for him? It could only bring more customers to HostBill and make current customers happy. But he refused. the dude is clearly off his rocker. and doesn't care about us. and had brazen disregard for EU law with some of those pricing changes, so why should we be so quick to jump to his legal defense?

i've never in my life bought software for hundreds of dollars, then be petrified to use it for months, and it just get worse. incredible. we have to protect ourselves from unstable people and situations. no one wants to resell hostbill. but damn if we want to get our money's worth...

[thetrusteeco]

Looks like while you were writing that I was opening a related thread about a decrypted version for fixing bugs. I guess you answered the question I asked there, but I think the two topics are far enough apart to leave a second thread.  (Kris bankrupt/dying vs Kris letting us work on bugs)

Regarding:

...I've never in my life bought software for hundreds of dollars, then be petrified to use it for months...

+1 We couldn't use it for about a year. Even now we can't implement new products we want because of bugs.  I am also not willing to advertise my HB website.  No way, lack of confidence in the functionality of HostBill as it is.  It works, then an update, and old bugs are back! 

Sometimes I wonder if Chris is really an evil genius that is just messing with us all! I imagine him releasing a new update and then sitting back and laughing manically!

However I really meant the point of this thread to protect ourselves and customers if Kris does just disappear.  I don't think anyone is going to "jump to his legal defense" but we do have to make sure we are within our own legal rights.

I doubt he is planing to disappear, if he fixes these bugs and gets some happy customers, HostBill will be a goldmine for the rest of his life!  But unexpected stuff happens...

[Lawrence]

Hey Lawrence,

Thanks for this.  I wasn't sure about license transferability.  I did read the agreement a couple years ago, and thought it was not permitted, but I've seen people stating they've resold thier licenses in WHT.  I thought maybe Kris updated the policy.  I'll have to redact something I posted in another thread...

However I don't understand how it applies in a non-Berne convention country.  Only the local laws apply.  Vietnamese or Kazakhstanians can crack, use, and even resell the software if the local government refuses to recognize Polish/EU copyrights.  However in neither case could the cracker resell it as "HostBill" because both countries are members of the Madrid system and recognize Polish/EU Trademarks.  Nevertheless, they could sell it under another name.  This is how so much cloned software comes out of Vietnam.

This is meant as academic speculation, not a suggested business model for anyone.  Who in their right mind would buy billing software from someone that is stealing code?

"Hmmm ... you're a thief you say, and you what to provide me with the software that will manage my customer's credit cards?  ... real cheap?"

You're right in regards to people selling their HostBill licenses. Some users have requested to sell their licenses, and Kris permitted it, but these are special cases. Long story short, some people caught on and assumed it was okay to resell their licenses. It's an oddity, but it doesn't apply to everyone. I don't know all the cases, but I do know a few.

In regards to the Berne Convention, I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that if software is decoded and changed in another country, the intellectual rights still hold valid in the originating country, and would be illegal should it ever re-enter as a new software. It does after all contain the original code. This is what makes it illegal, so you'd never be able to do business legally outside of the nations that have not participated in the Berne Convention. You'd have to literally change every single line in order to make it legal,and then on top of that change all the images associated with it. Once you've done that, you have to get back into the code and make sure there aren't any Unique methods to a process in which it is executed, which is part of the code, but the method could be patented. (That's where you should be nervous as many patents are valid for 20 years)

Patents generally have to be public, so unless you have the man hours to look it up (Could take months even with the best lawyers), then you're out of luck. Patents are by country, so generally if there're 5 patents registered in the USA, UK, Poland, and 2 other random nations, then you'd have to find all 5 patents. Not fun.

There's a lot of overlooked stuff when people consider getting involved in decoding software. It's dangerous stuff, even if it's for the Better Good.

[thetrusteeco]

Excellent analysis Lawrence.

[CRServers]

Well, we have the MySQL data and database structure.
That is a valid start for somebody or the whole HB community to develop an open source project.

It implies work.... but that's the only way to go, if you do not want to migrate your business to another Billing product.
Now if we can all contribute $75 (the price of a ticket  ) we could even hire some programmers to come up with an open source alternative.


Rodrigo

[tallship]

That's certainly a worthwhile quest, but we're going to be seeing this occur independently within the next year anyway - I'm certain of it. Your suggestion would still entail a serious undertaking, and yet there are problems with the hostbill model where it has not scaled for integration with other products that I believe will force this issue anyway.

Currently, I am pushing, encouraging, and whenever possible practicing what I preach by replacing any non-core HostBill functionality with non kbkp developed software - I believe this is a logical first step towards creating demand in the market whereby a witty team of open source minded core developers can replicate the HostBill Core functionality (Much easier to do since yesterday by the way, since almost none of the modules you have as part of core are included in HostBill anymore).

Considering ModulesGarden and the other developer firms here with product releases that are either imminent or currently available as stable production software, It will be a simple matter to port those applications over to this new open source billing framework (Many of which already exist anyway, if you think about it) that will emerge within the next year.

This will either put kbkp out of the hostbill business, or force them into a paridigmatic shift in the way they put out there product - even though no one will ever trust them again.

For Example, i'm currently working on a product that will completely replace HostBill's lame live chat module, and at $200 bucks a pop for people who use it in the future? Well, no one's going to bother buying that - especially when you consider that like it or not, HostBillForums.com is now the Pre-Sales channel for HostBill - what will you honestly say to someone if anyone ever posts in presales forum? LMAO!!!

You can read up on this first project I'm engaging in and commissioning here: http://www.hostbillforums.com/index.php/topic,102.msg670.html#msg670

I hope that helps

[pcardoso]

In the US, if Hostbill (aka Quality Software) and they were a US company would go bankrupt, the trustee would have the duty to determine what would happen to the software.  Bankruptcy court would also not allow the "hacking" of the software.  So, as Lawrence stated, it would still be illegal to decode the software.

Here in Europe it is the same. If the company goes bankruptcy  the company assets are studied and usually sold to people making offers or on auctions. Even so, only the court can decide.
It is illegal to decode the software as it has copyrights and licenses.

So, if anything happens, the best option will be to chose another software, beside decoding it...

[Patrick]

Here in Europe it is the same. If the company goes bankruptcy  the company assets are studied and usually sold to people making offers or on auctions. Even so, only the court can decide.
It is illegal to decode the software as it has copyrights and licenses.

So, if anything happens, the best option will be to chose another software, beside decoding it...

Nevertheless the topic of hostbill going bankrupt is silly.  They are NOT even close to a million dollar company.  If i were to guess their value, it'd be well under $100,000.  They do not have any recurring pricing and i do not believe they've sold enough to be above that.  There is no road map, no stability to show worth or value.  So going under isn't even a concern, they don't have enough overhead to file bankruptcy or divide assets.  I doubt they even have any.  They have 1-2 servers.  1 for hostbillapp.com and MAYBE one dev. 

Their servers are with softlayer (previously ThePlanet) so maybe $150 a month in costs.  Sure they have ads up for hiring developers, but no proof that it's anything but fake job offerings.  No sales staff, no billing staff, 2 registered partners as per the registered business #. 

Them filing bankruptcy = slim to none at this time.  Now them getting bored and shutting it all down is a bigger possibility.  If this time comes, i will do what has to be done to regain access to private customer data and move to another software.  Preferably one who has an import script.  One thing i know for sure, we have no plans to update past 4.6.0 and have been considering developing in house just to avoid this crap.