Past your "30 day refund" window and want a refund? Request a chargeback!

[electric]

Greetings,

I wanted to make it clear to anyone who purchased a Hostbill license within the last 6 months, and feels that HostBill has been less than honest about things... that you can still get a refund for your purchase.

It's called chargeback.

Despite whatever nonsense Kris puts into the Hostbill license agreement, you are entitled to a full refund if you believe Hostbill was misrepresented or that it does not deliver the features and functionality that you purchased.

It will cost you nothing, and it's certainly better then losing your money and ending up with a license for Hostbill that you will never use.

1.  Call your credit card issuing bank and ask for the chargeback department.

2. Tell them you want to request a chargeback (reversal of charges) for your purchase.  Give them the exact date/time and amount you paid to Hostbill.

3. When you are asked what is the reason for the chargeback, you can politely tell them, "The software is defective and does not work as described."  If applicable to your situation, you can explain there are bugs that are not being fixed, and that some basic included functionality you purchased (such as order pages) has been removed and the software is now fundamentally different then what you purchased. (ie: Bait and switch.)  Furthermore, the company offers no way to contact them to discuss the problem unless you pay them more money.

4. Sit back and wait for the chargeback to be processed.

Once your chargeback is filed, a notification will be sent to the Hostbill company owner, who must now prove your claims are incorrect. You will receive a refund unless Hostbill owner (Kris) can prove that your reason for the chargeback is incorrect.   

[tallship]

You forgot to mention that there is a chargeback fee assessed to the vendor whenever there is a chargeback too, so even if your chargeback is not successful kbkp will still be dinged monetarily for their transgressions.

[nibb]

What you are posting here is illegal and you are basically telling customers its ok to make a false statement with their banks. Chargebacks are not for that.

You cannot buy an intangible product like a software online and then go to the bank and say you did not made the transaction. That is fraud.

I cannot believe you are even posting this here. Should the user then send back the software? Yeah sure....

[tallship]

I think what he posted was legitimate. All he did was explain how a chargeback works, and that, if you purchased defective software, along with the other items he mentioned in his post, it's not just perfectly legal, but justifiable.

I'm not concerned about us, because we started using HostBill over a year ago and we're committed to it's use until such time that everyone is migrated to another platform or bonehead pulls his head out. But there seems to be a lot of folks who recently purchased HostBill, consider it defective, and aren't getting their money back - if commerical software isn't merchantable (I think that's a correct phrasing, not sure though), then the buyer has every right to a refund, regardless of some fake 30 day money back guarantee that requires you to give them root access to your secured, intellectual property.

I don't see any problem with his post at all. That's exactly the same thing your own credit card company will tell you to do and say in writing if you call them, explain the situation, and ask them what to do about being defrauded.

[tallship]

Should the user then send back the software? Yeah sure....

No, not at all, according to the terms of the license, the user is supposed to destroy any leftover copies.

[electric]

You cannot buy an intangible product like a software online and then go to the bank and say you did not made the transaction. That is fraud.

Please go back and read my post.  I did not suggest fraud as a reason for requesting a chargeback.   

I will quote from my post, and highlight the appropriate part for you, so you don't have to actually think while you read it:

3. When you are asked what is the reason for the chargeback, you can politely tell them, "The software is defective and does not work as described."  If applicable to your situation, you can explain there are bugs that are not being fixed, and that some basic included functionality you purchased (such as order pages) has been removed and the software is now fundamentally different then what you purchased. (ie: Bait and switch.)  Furthermore, the company offers no way to contact them to discuss the problem unless you pay them more money.

I am certainly NOT suggesting anyone should make a false statement to their bank.   

[John]

Hey guess what! It's now a 7 day refund!

http://hostbillapp.com/order/

[electric]

Hey guess what! It's now a 7 day refund!

http://hostbillapp.com/order/

It really doesn't matter how many days they specify.   If you paid by credit card, you have at least 120 days, and up to 6 months (depending on your bank), to ask your bank to do a chargeback. 

Of course, you should try and contact Hostbill and request a refund first.  If they refuse for any reason, then feel free to contact your bank and request a chargeback to get your money back.

[tallship]

Hey guess what! It's now a 7 day refund!

http://hostbillapp.com/order/

Hey Guess what?

Pull his strings. Watch the marionette do exactly what you tell him to... sit boy sit, roll over, lick your <censored>lls. Good puppy!

You can make him do anything you want - you just have to pull his string. HERE's a good place to start

[Patrick]

What you are posting here is illegal and you are basically telling customers its ok to make a false statement with their banks. Chargebacks are not for that.

You cannot buy an intangible product like a software online and then go to the bank and say you did not made the transaction. That is fraud.

I cannot believe you are even posting this here. Should the user then send back the software? Yeah sure....

You clearly do not understand how a charge back works or fraud. 

I'm not sure why you're so confrontational with everyone including on WHT.  You tend to argue with everyone when they do something YOU disagree with.  This is NOT fraud.  Reason for that is the following.

• They did not receive what they paid for (Such as advertised features)
• Breach of contract (Original agreement upon purchase)
• Grounds for possible fraud from an unstable company.  False sense of security.
• Not receiving the *as promised* support if they have tickets open and bugs going unresolved.
• Including vmware 5 to existing customers then taking it away quickly.

I could continue listing another 100 reasons and legitimate reasons at that.

There are many grounds here that are valid, so no it is NOT fraud.  Not sure why you *can't believe this is posted here*.  This is a free and open forum for everyone to talk openly without fear of being muted.  period.

For us, we're well over 6 months, and even then it still works well for us so i'd be lying if i said it didn't myself

[tallship]

Including vmware 5 to existing customers then taking it away quickly.

Thank you Patrick

[CBlade]

Hey guess what! It's now a 7 day refund!

http://hostbillapp.com/order/

7 Days "refund" that never will be refunded actually? This look like SCAM to me!!!!

"Refunds

Refunds will be only issued for failure caused by Software before one full month of usage has passed, once technical staff determine what caused the aforementioned failure. Refunds are not issued for software misuse, server failure or for installation on unsupported servers."

[nibb]

You clearly do not understand how a charge back works or fraud. 

I'm not sure why you're so confrontational with everyone including on WHT.  You tend to argue with everyone when they do something YOU disagree with.  This is NOT fraud.  Reason for that is the following.

• They did not receive what they paid for (Such as advertised features)
• Breach of contract (Original agreement upon purchase)
• Grounds for possible fraud from an unstable company.  False sense of security.
• Not receiving the *as promised* support if they have tickets open and bugs going unresolved.
• Including vmware 5 to existing customers then taking it away quickly.

I could continue listing another 100 reasons and legitimate reasons at that.

There are many grounds here that are valid, so no it is NOT fraud.  Not sure why you *can't believe this is posted here*.  This is a free and open forum for everyone to talk openly without fear of being muted.  period.

For us, we're well over 6 months, and even then it still works well for us so i'd be lying if i said it didn't myself

I'm not being controversial, I talk from experience. I don´t know in which bank, or maybe in the US chargebacks are fine if you do not agree with the product received (last time I checked it was) but in the rest of the world Visa and MC have specific rules for a chargeback.

A chargeback is basically denying a paying. This means the cardholder is denying or recognizing a charge in his credit card. You cannot deny a charge because you dislike something. Visa and Mastercard are very clear on this, or not a single merchant would accept them. Its supposed to be like cash, not not insurance to get your money back if you don´t like something. In that case you need to contact the merchant directly a proper reverse or refund should be done. NOT a chargeback.

The first think a bank will give you if a form to complete, and you need to clearly detail why you don´t recognize or deny the charge. Ther is nothing there that justifies because you don´t like the product or service. Please tell me the bank that allows me to do this. Did you know banks have an internal chargeback reports as well? Customers have a limited amounts they can, Visa for example can even deny the renewal of the card if you constantly do chargebacks.

Chargebacks is not a ransom method to blackmail a retailer or company. "I will chargeback if I don´t like your product" that is fraud.

Chargebacks means denying a transaction. If you have problems with a product or service the merchant should issue the proper refunds method, not the bank. The bank is not supposed to act an involved party here.

What do you guys sell? Hosting? Because correct me if im wrong, but most hosts cancel a customer account immediately if they receive a chargeback or mark it as fraud, some charge hefty fees in case it was an error. So please everyone explain me then why they do this? If you think its ok, then I would assume that you are all ok if one of your customers makes a chargeback because he was not happy with your hosting service, or he just did not knew how to make something work, so he just goes to the bank the chargebacks you.

Are you fine with this? Please be honest, and do not lie because im 100% you do not tolerate chargebacks done in your hosting services either but you think its fine in this case.

Do you also go to WHT and suggest users not happy with their hosting services or servers to just chargeback their credit cards? Nice ideas you are giving consumers....or maybe you also suggest people paying by check and then cancelling the check before its going to be effective on the other parties bank...

The US has more consumer rights over this but chargebacks cannot be used for the things you posted here.

It can for the following reasons:

1. Technical errors, like bank errors, or no funds, bad authorizations, etc.
2. Done by clerks, like incorrect amount, double billing, refund not issued, etc.
3. Buying something and not receiving it (fraud from the store, seller, etc)
4. Fraud. Stolen card, did not authorize, etc

I cannot be used if you just dislike something. Like buying a software or a product and then just looking at it and saying, ups I don´t like it. In this case you need to request a refund, in case a refund applies by the company. Only then, if the company does not issue the promised refund in a proper time frame you can request a chargeback.

And some software companies or services do not have a refund policy at all. Why do you think PayPal does not allow this for intangible items either? Because allot of people did fraud, buying software then requesting money back, or buying services using it a full month and then requesting money back. So PayPal does not allow disputes for services anymore.

And credit cards are no different. The consumer is supposed to claim they never received the product or never authorized the transaction. The first thing your bank will tell you if you say you want the money back because you don´t like the product, is to contact the vendor and try to deal with them first.

[Patrick]

I'm not being controversial, I talk from experience. I don´t know in which bank, or maybe in the US chargebacks are fine if you do not agree with the product received (last time I checked it was) but in the rest of the world Visa and MC have specific rules for a chargeback.

A chargeback is basically denying a paying. This means the cardholder is denying or recognizing a charge in his credit card. You cannot deny a charge because you dislike something. Visa and Mastercard are very clear on this, or not a single merchant would accept them. Its supposed to be like cash, not not insurance to get your money back if you don´t like something. In that case you need to contact the merchant directly a proper reverse or refund should be done. NOT a chargeback.

The first think a bank will give you if a form to complete, and you need to clearly detail why you don´t recognize or deny the charge. Ther is nothing there that justifies because you don´t like the product or service. Please tell me the bank that allows me to do this. Did you know banks have an internal chargeback reports as well? Customers have a limited amounts they can, Visa for example can even deny the renewal of the card if you constantly do chargebacks.

Chargebacks is not a ransom method to blackmail a retailer or company. "I will chargeback if I don´t like your product" that is fraud.

Chargebacks means denying a transaction. If you have problems with a product or service the merchant should issue the proper refunds method, not the bank. The bank is not supposed to act an involved party here.

What do you guys sell? Hosting? Because correct me if im wrong, but most hosts cancel a customer account immediately if they receive a chargeback or mark it as fraud, some charge hefty fees in case it was an error. So please everyone explain me then why they do this? If you think its ok, then I would assume that you are all ok if one of your customers makes a chargeback because he was not happy with your hosting service, or he just did not knew how to make something work, so he just goes to the bank the chargebacks you.

Are you fine with this? Please be honest, and do not lie because im 100% you do not tolerate chargebacks done in your hosting services either but you think its fine in this case.

Do you also go to WHT and suggest users not happy with their hosting services or servers to just chargeback their credit cards? Nice ideas you are giving consumers....or maybe you also suggest people paying by check and then cancelling the check before its going to be effective on the other parties bank...

I do not hold grudges with my customers for charge backs.  Most of the time it's misunderstandings and we resolve it, other times we part ways with respect and it's done.  If a customer preforms a charge back, their account isn't suspended immediately unless we cannot hear from them within a few days after we contact them.

That said, i didn't need you to explain to me what a charge back was, i know very well what it is.  Charge back is for many purposes, mainly of which is consumer protection.  In this case, the primary reason would be "Did not receive what i purchased" if it were me doing it as advertised features are still not functioning a year later.  Calling a charge back fraud is like accusing someone of writing a bad check.  I doubt anyone around here had that purpose and if the software functioned as advertised, no issues of charge backs would be even discussed.

Now let's go on to the breaking contractual agreements.  Many were supposed to be provided 52 weeks of support for free prior to the restricted paid for support, of which turned to maximum 10 tickets first.  They broke an agreement there nullifying any agreement therefore a charge back would be justified as what they have done in the past is fraud in many countries. 

A charge back as i said is consumer protection.  To protect yourself against fraud.  In this case, the software was advertised as X Y Z and only delivered X as Y & Z were broken.

[nibb]

You would be the exception to the industry. Most hosting companies I know, suspend the account and possible terminate the customer if they receive a chargeback or a PayPal dispute and most inform this in their TOS as well.

I don´t say its not for consumer protection, but usually its meant to protect the cardholder against fraud or unauthorized use. Not as a tool if someone is not happy with a purchase.

Software that has no problems? Please tell me if you know one, because I don´t know a single software bug free.

In the US credit card regulations are more consumer protective than in the rest of the world, this is true, but usually a chargeback is still a forced procedure of refund doing via the bank, its not a nice way to get a refund and should be used as last resort.

In the case of software I do not agree at all with chargebacks because its impossible to know if the other party is going to destroy the software in their systems. In particular with downloads, im sure most users doing a chargeback still hold a copy after it. And for services already rendered its also on debatable on how legal or immoral it can be. Im not against chargebacks, this is not what im saying. I just don´t think it should be suggested so lightly on public forums.

I actually read some people in WHT that do this after getting a hosting account and when someone tells them that was wrong, they really assumed it was ok to do this, because they say they never used the hosting or just would not use it, so they just made a chargeback on their servers which where active for 30 days. The company does lose money on this, and there is a reason why there also is a penalty fee on the merchant, as opposed to a simple refund. Most merchants will cancel your account if you receive to many chargebacks, why? If its suppose to be a consumer tool, its ok to receive many of them. And this is not the case, a merchant receiving allot of them is usually because he is not willingly doing refunds, and possible (not always) but doing fraud, not delivering what was promised at all.

Electric he posted this "I wanted to make it clear to anyone who purchased a Hostbill license within the last 6 months, and feels that HostBill has been less than honest about things... that you can still get a refund for your purchase."

Personally I would terminate a customer account immediately for this. For long old customers, it can be a mistake, but receiving a new order, providing the service and then receiving a chargeback for the last 3 months I consider fraud on part of the customer and I usually will dispute it as much as I can trying to even penalize the user on his bank. I have won this before and I could prove fraud on part of the user, in particular when they claim not to recognize the charge in the bill statement (what they usually claim) which is a false statement with the bank and the credit card provider. One thing is getting a bad service, or being scammed. The other is scamming a company and abusing your position as consumer. Some are honest, but some people should not be even allowed to have credit cards. I have experienced many scams with supposed innocent chargebacks on part of users just to find out they actually do this from one company to another and so never pay for their services.