License Transfer

[Paul]

submit a formal complain to the EU regulatory commission. they do not take kindly to companies disregarding their laws that protect the citizenry and will start with a very firm letter to the company, that if gone ignored, will escalate ferociously, with steep steep fines. hopefully they listen and this disregard for the laws will stop.

[Patrick]

What is your point? That as a consumer im legally entitled to transfer and sell my Kayako license?

I highly recommend you hire yourself a lawyer to better understand your rights.  Coming on here and mocking other members because they commented on their consumer rights is not very productive.  What you'd like to do with Kayako is your business. 

You need to better understand the EU law bud before coming on to any community forums and portraying the same attitude that businesses such as KBKP Software have.  It's their ignorance, not the consumers.

edit:

Just a note.  I just verified with Kayako that they will allow me to transfer my license if i wanted to.  They call it a "case by case" issue, but as he put it with me, it's to protect from abusing unlimited seat license holders from making money off of the software as that's not it's intended purpose.  If you want to sell your Kayako license, likely hood is, they will allow you.

[nibb]

I highly recommend you hire yourself a lawyer to better understand your rights.  Coming on here and mocking other members because they commented on their consumer rights is not very productive.  What you'd like to do with Kayako is your business. 

You need to better understand the EU law bud before coming on to any community forums and portraying the same attitude that businesses such as KBKP Software have.  It's their ignorance, not the consumers.

And that comes from who exactly?

I worked for IT companies in Europe, in particular software and hosting. What makes you think I don´t know the EU laws?

You think you have the right to dictate what a business should do. All I said is good luck. Hire a lawyer and sue them or make your EU complaints, lets see how far you get because last time I checked you will find other 1000 companies in Europe with the same procedures.

Did you know by the way that some software like Windows you don't even own? You are granted a permanent usage license for life, but you never own Windows in the first place either. That is just one example.

Kayako is a huge software developer company, do you actually think they are so stupid to ignore EU laws? They don´t even let you change the domain of the license without proper justification or ownership. Know try to sue all this companies which license software per domain telling them they are all wrong. That was my point.

I don´t say what you are wrong, but this is far long from posting here in a public forum people are allowed to sell their licenses, while the owner of the company did not said so, even Lawrence said in another post its not allowed without approval.

If you think you right, then by my guest, just because we are pissed with Hostbill does not mean we can do what we want with the software, like selling to others without license approval, decoding it, etc. He can pretty much use the same principles of piracy if you transfer it to a third party without approval not to mention if you profit from that as well. As far as I know the software was licensed per company or individual, even if its owned, its owned for life for that specific individual or company. You assume otherwise im not even sure why. A new individual or organization means a new license is issued, which is profit loss if its done otherwise.

One thing is to try to claim your rights, even while I think you are Canadian based, so not sure where you take this. Another one is to do something which will hurt that company financially, which is exactly the case here. Loss of profits, since that new individual should go to their company and website to buy its own license.

If im wrong here, I would be actually glad im wrong, which mean I can recover my money as well.

The case by case basis you mentioned, last time I asked them they said they will only change the domain name if I can prove its owned by the same company or organization and they don´t allow me to sell my unlimited seat license. Why would they care if I make profits? If its owned?

Same issue here, if I purchased HB for 100$ and sell it for 500$ im also making a profit, so its exactly the same case.

[Paul]

We do not need his approval.

Microsoft's license is written in such a way as to identify the usage-license, transferrable 5 times to machines of different hardware, etc.

HostBill's license specifically states, lifetime OWNED license. This puts it under the dictates of EU law regarding owned software. If he wanted to make it so we couldn't sell our license, he would have to change his license, but that would not be retroactive.

We are not doing whatever we want because we don't like him or his software (I like the parts of HostBill that work, mostly), we are following the law and our rights, something KBKP should do more often.

[nibb]

We do not need his approval.

Microsoft's license is written in such a way as to identify the usage-license, transferrable 5 times to machines of different hardware, etc.

HostBill's license specifically states, lifetime OWNED license. This puts it under the dictates of EU law regarding owned software. If he wanted to make it so we couldn't sell our license, he would have to change his license, but that would not be retroactive.

We are not doing whatever we want because we don't like him or his software (I like the parts of HostBill that work, mostly), we are following the law and our rights, something KBKP should do more often.

You know better than I do that it's immoral, even if its legal. You are restricting him from new income. Lets not go as low as he did just to save some bucks.

[Patrick]

And that comes from who exactly?

I worked for IT companies in Europe, in particular software and hosting. What makes you think I don´t know the EU laws?

You think you have the right to dictate what a business should do. All I said is good luck. Hire a lawyer and sue them or make your EU complaints, lets see how far you get because last time I checked you will find other 1000 companies in Europe with the same procedures.

Did you know by the way that some software like Windows you don't even own? You are granted a permanent usage license for life, but you never own Windows in the first place either. That is just one example.

Kayako is a huge software developer company, do you actually think they are so stupid to ignore EU laws? They don´t even let you change the domain of the license without proper justification or ownership. Know try to sue all this companies which license software per domain telling them they are all wrong. That was my point.

I don´t say what you are wrong, but this is far long from posting here in a public forum people are allowed to sell their licenses, while the owner of the company did not said so, even Lawrence said in another post its not allowed without approval.

If you think you right, then by my guest, just because we are pissed with Hostbill does not mean we can do what we want with the software, like selling to others without license approval, decoding it, etc. He can pretty much use the same principles of piracy if you transfer it to a third party without approval not to mention if you profit from that as well. As far as I know the software was licensed per company or individual, even if its owned, its owned for life for that specific individual or company. You assume otherwise im not even sure why. A new individual or organization means a new license is issued, which is profit loss if its done otherwise.

One thing is to try to claim your rights, even while I think you are Canadian based, so not sure where you take this. Another one is to do something which will hurt that company financially, which is exactly the case here. Loss of profits, since that new individual should go to their company and website to buy its own license.

If im wrong here, I would be actually glad im wrong, which mean I can recover my money as well.

The case by case basis you mentioned, last time I asked them they said they will only change the domain name if I can prove its owned by the same company or organization and they don´t allow me to sell my unlimited seat license. Why would they care if I make profits? If its owned?

Same issue here, if I purchased HB for 100$ and sell it for 500$ im also making a profit, so its exactly the same case.

You working in EU for IT companies means nothing to me or other consumers.  Congrats i guess?  I'm assuming you do not know EU law because of your behavior towards this issue.  Your very ignorance to this is very telling as to your knowledge in EU law.  (Not saying your ignorant, just your ignorance to the law). 

I haven't completely gone over this, but it appears to touch base on a press release based on this very issue http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf

You know better than I do that it's immoral, even if its legal. You are restricting him from new income. Lets not go as low as he did just to save some bucks.

Immoral?  What the......are you going on about?!? How are people saving some money?  They are selling the software they physically own, they do not own intellectual rights, but they own the rights to the use of the software and it's license.  There is nothing immoral about it and your mindset is rather boggling.


Lots of people that sell their license.  They go out of business, move on to another venture.

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=2C1CHFX_enCA0536CA0536&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#rlz=2C1CHFX_enCA0536CA0536&sclient=psy-ab&q=kayako%20license%20for%20sale&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=84155d17bc47b91f&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47244034,d.aWM&biw=1920&bih=955

[Paul]

Immoral? Save some bucks?! I WANT MY MONEY BACK! That's not saving some bucks, that recouping losses because I was sold defective software with terms that changed, and I was especially shafted over the whole VMWare 5 thing where I helped him, and he screwed me, screwed all of us.

We would be operating within the law, which is far above and beyond what the owner of KBKP Software is and has been doing. I do not feel one iota of compassion from "restricting him from new income". He has cost customers untold thousands with his practices.

EDIT:  Yes, as Patrick says, people sell their owned WHMCS licenses all the time when they sell their hosting company, as a very relevant example.

[nibb]

You working in EU for IT companies means nothing to me or other consumers.  Congrats i guess?  I'm assuming you do not know EU law because of your behavior towards this issue.  Your very ignorance to this is very telling as to your knowledge in EU law.  (Not saying your ignorant, just your ignorance to the law). 

I haven't completely gone over this, but it appears to touch base on a press release based on this very issue http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf

Immoral?  What the......are you going on about?!? How are people saving some money?  They are selling the software they physically own, they do not own intellectual rights, but they own the rights to the use of the software and it's license.  There is nothing immoral about it and your mindset is rather boggling.


Lots of people that sell their license.  They go out of business, move on to another venture.

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=2C1CHFX_enCA0536CA0536&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#rlz=2C1CHFX_enCA0536CA0536&sclient=psy-ab&q=kayako%20license%20for%20sale&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=84155d17bc47b91f&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47244034,d.aWM&biw=1920&bih=955

I assume you are a lawyer then, if not, then let me tell you that for each law or regulation you quote, there are 10 others that contradict exactly the same, so its up to a judge to decide who is wrong or right. And its usually done on bad faith if they can exactly prove anything which is the case usually in business cases.

The software they physically own? Really?

Last time I checked hostbill never send you a box. Its an intangible item you downloaded from the Internet. And now I will assume you do own the bites and bytes which are physically stored in your local system or server. Lets just not enter that because even PayPal considers Hostbill intangible item, reason why he is actually using now PayPal to avoid chargebacks, as PayPal does not allow disputes over intangible services (yes downloaded software includes that)

[nibb]

Immoral? Save some bucks?! I WANT MY MONEY BACK! That's not saving some bucks, that recouping losses because I was sold defective software with terms that changed, and I was especially shafted over the whole VMWare 5 thing where I helped him, and he screwed me, screwed all of us.

We would be operating within the law, which is far above and beyond what the owner of KBKP Software is and has been doing. I do not feel one iota of compassion from "restricting him from new income". He has cost customers untold thousands with his practices.

EDIT:  Yes, as Patrick says, people sell their owned WHMCS licenses all the time when they sell their hosting company, as a very relevant example.

What WHMCS is a complete other story. They allow this, and WHT they verify licenses all the time. This does not mean every company is forced to do the same.

Sure, I also want my money back. I also want my time back. And I want money for the time I spend fixing things in Hostbill, as well spending in their forums, reporting bucks. I also want my money for my Windows XP license, which I don´t use anymore. And I also want money for my old phone which I upgraded.

Welcome to planet earth. You lost money, you made a bad purchase, deal with it.

We all did. And nobody is getting their money back. Reselling the software, when it was said its not allowed would you put in you in the same levels Kris did with some changes in his license.

And also, all changes where NOT applied to existing customers or license holders. He did honor this as far as I know.

He may be an idiot, a lunatic, a drug abuser, I don´t know, based in his decisions. But lets not be as pirate as he is running his business.

I also want my money back if that is the case. Last time I read your post, you said you where making a chargeback with your bank, and then reselling the software.

So yes, I think there is some immorality here. Getting your money both ways it seems.

I also wonder how many people that did chargeback their CC, actually even destroyed the software from their computers and all copies. Yeah, guess who many.

[YesIHaveOne]

Small claims court in the UK, cheap easy to use & they will probably not contest the case.

[Patrick]

I assume you are a lawyer then, if not, then let me tell you that for each law or regulation you quote, there are 10 others that contradict exactly the same, so its up to a judge to decide who is wrong or right. And its usually done on bad faith if they can exactly prove anything which is the case usually in business cases.

The software they physically own? Really?

Last time I checked hostbill never send you a box. Its an intangible item you downloaded from the Internet. And now I will assume you do own the bites and bytes which are physically stored in your local system or server. Lets just not enter that because even PayPal considers Hostbill intangible item, reason why he is actually using now PayPal to avoid chargebacks, as PayPal does not allow disputes over intangible services (yes downloaded software includes that)

Dude, i did study law, i didn't continue far enough to pass the bar but i did study law for 4 years.  It's not just the software in question, it's the LICENSE.  Why do you keep questioning who is a lawyer, who is a judge or decisions.  As paul stated, we are operating within the law and exercising the rights of a consumer.  You're acting very childish in this regard as you're ignorance to the physical LAW is and black and white.  If the law dictates our rights that we can sell off our rights to a license, no judge will deny it. 

Guess what?  Judges also have to follow the law, they too have to protect and validate consumer rights as they do business rights to protect their encoded software.
Your argument is baseless because it would mean no software company that offers digital downloads would have a leg to stand on should we pirate their software due to it being intangible.   

Let me state this again.

You cannot legally decode Hostbill under the law correct? ----- answer would be yes, you are NOT allowed
Under the EU law, the transferability of a license is permitted under the law ---- answer would be yes, you ARE allowed under EU LAW.

I don't know how else to tell you this, we didn't right the damn books, we didn't pass the bills.  We all operate under the law.

[Patrick]

Welcome to planet earth. You lost money, you made a bad purchase, deal with it.

You said this perfectly Nibb.  Welcome to plant earth, where laws exist to protect consumers AND developers.  In this case, consumers have their rights.  So welcome to planet earth bud.

Edit:

Laws exist to protect motorists, consumers, business owners, landlords, property owners, governments etc... etc...  Welcome to planet earth.
I've never seen someone antagonize someone for exercising their legal rights.  People get flamed for flaunting the law and now apparently by operating under it

[nibb]

You said this perfectly Nibb.  Welcome to plant earth, where laws exist to protect consumers AND developers.  In this case, consumers have their rights.  So welcome to planet earth bud.

Its seems all of you are law abiding citizens when its suits you. I wonder how many here insulted Kris or even made false accusations, me included, or used brand names, if we want to go that route, im sure he has a case against some as well. Not to mention Paul saying he will chargeback his CC and then posting he will sell and transfer his license. That already would constitute fraud if we go exactly by the law.

I wonder which hosting company you represent Patrick. I would love to use some of your software and services and then reclaim my money for everything you provided, citing also exactly the law and my consumer rights. I guess you would be out of business if every single of your customers was doing that.

But im sure you will find ways to justify this as well. Should maybe Kris charges us for the days we used the software after transferring them to a third party? That would be fair right? Since we did owned it for a temporary period of time. And im sure the ones that want this option used the software as well.

[Patrick]

I moved a lot of the off topic stuff as best as these forums would allow.  I'm too used to VB lol.  Anyhow, this topic is opened again to allow a good conversation to continue on an important topic.

[thetrusteeco]

Hey everyone, before anyone accuses Patrick of removing there comments, I was one the one that asked him to split of the off-topic stuff so we could reopen this issue.  It had degenerated into something entertaining but useless, and I get why he locked it.  But It is an important issue.

I think it's important to remember we're all on the same side here.

I would be curious to know if anyone has recently sold a license, or is it something just from years ago?