Status

[The1stImmortal]

Hi folks,

I'm pretty much in charge of hosting operations at a smallish Australian IT consultancy/service provider. We've previously been focused on invoice-based and ad-hoc billing solutions but we're in the process of rebuilding our infrastructure to handle everything in a much more automated, streamlined fashion.

Our environment currently consists of a couple of different hosting control panel environments (WebsitePanel and ISPConfig3 [though we're not wedded to ISPConfig too heavily]). We're running VMware vCloud & vSphere for virtual datacenter/"real"-VM hosting and have a few Virtuozzo linux hosts for containerized VPSes (density's much better with containers obviously).

We're looking at the various billing solutions at the moment but as the first step it's basically come down to WHMCS vs Hostbill for functionality (We're not currently in a position to arrange custom module development for one of the more custom solutions to ensure it supports everything)

The problems I'm facing is this:
- WHMCS doesn't have native (or apparently third-party) support for VMware vCloud at all, whereas Hostbill advertises this
- I can neither evaluate Hostbill's vCloud support nor get authorization to spend US$100 on asking a question about it (My boss will *not* authorize paying for a presales enquiry, *especially* if the quote involves products as expensive as Hostbill is once all modules etc are accounted for)
- Hostbill's extreme componentization makes it ridiculously expensive

The consensus between this forum and other sources on the internet seems to be that the Hostbill developer has gone off the deep end in the last few months and the company is currently too unstable to trust.

So onto the actual questions...

1) Has anyone actually been able to try the VMware vCloud integration?
1a) Alternatively, the VMware vSphere integration? I can cope with the billing system talking to vSphere instead of vCloud for now.
2) Does anyone see a possibility that the business stability issues surrounding Hostbill/KBKP Software Krzysztof may work themselves out in the near- to mid-term? Or is the general feeling that Hostbill's time is done?
3) Are there known/Have there been any takers for the new pricing model, or even for the presales question fee? What has been the experience
4) Raw installation aside, how smooth/coherent is integration with external systems, and what's the opinions regarding the management and customer experiences?


Thanks in advance folks - I appreciate any help you could give me!

[tallship]

- I can neither evaluate Hostbill's vCloud support nor get authorization to spend US$100 on asking a question about it (My boss will *not* authorize paying for a presales enquiry)

He's a smart man. You should take a cue from him.

- Hostbill's extreme componentization makes it ridiculously expensive

Yes. it does. Emphasis on ridiculous.

The consensus between this forum and other sources on the internet seems to be that the Hostbill developer has gone off the deep end in the last few months and the company is currently too unstable to trust.

You mean that, only a consensus has been reached? I don't think you've actually performed due diligence and molled over all of the nightmares - the most recent one being a customer who paid an outrageous sum for a 5 pack of questions, with a guaranteed 18hr response, and it only took two weeks for their trouble ticket to be acknowledged with the first response from kbkp.

Pretty responsive huh?

So onto the actual questions...

I don't see the point but if you insist...

1) Has anyone actually been able to try the VMware vCloud integration?

It works for some, some of the time. is buggy, seems to break often for no apparent rational reason during weekly updates, and of course, you can always depend a guaranteed 18hr response if you prepurchase your support pack, right?

1a) Alternatively, the VMware vSphere integration? I can cope with the billing system talking to vSphere instead of vCloud for now.

You should read up here on the forums about vCloud and vSphere - it works for some, mostly.

2) Does anyone see a possibility that the business stability issues surrounding Hostbill/KBKP Software Krzysztof may work themselves out in the near- to mid-term? Or is the general feeling that Hostbill's time is done?

Actually, I think everyone here would like to hear your perspective on that question. Have you ever seen this before? Was it because the poor old whackjob went off his/her meds or because he/she was taking heavy doses of LSD? Did that vendor hate their customers? Were dozens of very prominent, and quite devout customers running away and adopting other software that, at least as advertised, might appear inferior?

What's your take on all of this?

3) Are there known/Have there been any takers for the new pricing model, or even for the presales question fee? What has been the experience

As far as anyone knows, No there has not. One person bought a 5 pack of priority technical support w/guaranteed 18hr responses, and like I pointed out above, they just now reported back saying they received a first response to their issue after only 2 weeks.

4) Raw installation aside, how smooth/coherent is integration with external systems, and what's the opinions regarding the management and customer experiences?

Raw installation aside? The installation is easy. You create a user account and virtualhost container pointing the DocumentRoot to some dir for that user, upload the zip file, unzip it, and then run the install script at http://sld.tld/install - easy peasy.

The ticketing system has had several breakages lately. This makes the customer experience very nice when they are complaining and you have no idea because those tickets are importing.

Within the client interface, you should open an account w/an existing provider and see for yourself. That's the best way to make a judegment, but suffice it to say that's why most people here were suckered into hostbill.

The accounting system in hostbill is all screwed up. people report their projected income as being off by somewhere between 20 and 50% on average.

From an administrative standpoint, there's no fine grained control over staff members for user accounts - it looks like it until you actually take a second look - for example, and only one example, you can't set it up so that a support staff member can *view* accounts and services - they can *edit*.

plugins break all the time, but it only costs you whatever the going rate is at the time to submit a trouble ticket that might receive a response in two weeks - or not, which is kewl, coz you asked for it when everything said, "don't do it".

Estimates look like crap when you send them to clients, with the line items overwriting other fields and running off the page into infinity. There was a fake bug fix about two months ago - no one's bothered to report that bug again coz what's the point of yet another fake bug fix?

There are a lot of reports surrounding very serious issues of broken templates for order pages and emails that for various reasons can't be customized to an acceptable presentation level for business.

The bug tracking system is a joke - it tracks nothing, is a stripped down OSQA like voting system, and even the most pressing bugs at the top are ignored (Go see for yourself here on these forums - hundreds, and I mean hundreds of bugs in a screenshot that accumulated in just over one month - most haven't been addressed in any way, shape, or form). There's no tracking, no commenting on bugs (i.e., You have to open a separate bug report for the same bug), and bugs are seemingly routinely marked as fixed when they're not.

Other than that, it's a really nice platform. And I don't mean that last point facetiously either. vSphere functionality does seem to work for me, although that's not saying much because it's pretty much useless unless you want to limit your users to no console and require them to perform an install based only on one iso image.

We're currently testing the vCloud now, and that seems to work too.

If you purchase the software at this time, you are prohibited from making several types of modifications to the system that you undoubtedly will want to, and you can't use any third party modules by other developers either.

I do like the interface, and I do like how the customer experience would be if it worked like it is supposed to in many areas.

Thanks in advance folks - I appreciate any help you could give me!

I think you should buy it - because you want your boss to fire you.

[The1stImmortal]

Hmm. nested quoting doesn't appear to happen automatically :/

Hi Tallship,

Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail!

Just to clarify I'm just doing what little research I can on this particular product through the only channel available in an effort to be thorough.

- I can neither evaluate Hostbill's vCloud support nor get authorization to spend US$100 on asking a question about it (My boss will *not* authorize paying for a presales enquiry)

He's a smart man. You should take a cue from him.

I happen to agree with him but its not my money to make that call about

- Hostbill's extreme componentization makes it ridiculously expensive

Yes. it does. Emphasis on ridiculous.

The thing is, some products can be worth such prices. There are obviously strong indications this isn't the case here, but sometime for the right product you can pay an insane amount.

The consensus between this forum and other sources on the internet seems to be that the Hostbill developer has gone off the deep end in the last few months and the company is currently too unstable to trust.

You mean that, only a consensus has been reached? I don't think you've actually performed due diligence and molled over all of the nightmares - the most recent one being a customer who paid an outrageous sum for a 5 pack of questions, with a guaranteed 18hr response, and it only took two weeks for their trouble ticket to be acknowledged with the first response from kbkp.

Pretty responsive huh?

I meant that the general feeling around the net at large seems to trend in the same direction. It does seem to be a recent trend though as I can find many positive things about Hostbill from somewhere around Jan/Feb 2013 and prior.

The support issue is somewhat troubling but tbh we rarely file vendor troubletickets anyway. I take it the code is obfuscated so self-fixing bugs is impossible yes?

So onto the actual questions...

I don't see the point but if you insist...

Methinks you do see the point or you'd not be replying?

1) Has anyone actually been able to try the VMware vCloud integration?

It works for some, some of the time. is buggy, seems to break often for no apparent rational reason during weekly updates, and of course, you can always depend a guaranteed 18hr response if you prepurchase your support pack, right?

1a) Alternatively, the VMware vSphere integration? I can cope with the billing system talking to vSphere instead of vCloud for now.

You should read up here on the forums about vCloud and vSphere - it works for some, mostly.

Indeed I have. Most of the problems I've seen on here seem to be with the modules variants that have been "abandoned" with the licensing shift though (unless I've completely misread everything, which is possible!)

I suppose with no takers for the new licensing asking about the current state is a bit pointless though!

2) Does anyone see a possibility that the business stability issues surrounding Hostbill/KBKP Software Krzysztof may work themselves out in the near- to mid-term? Or is the general feeling that Hostbill's time is done?

Actually, I think everyone here would like to hear your perspective on that question. Have you ever seen this before? Was it because the poor old whackjob went off his/her meds or because he/she was taking heavy doses of LSD? Did that vendor hate their customers? Were dozens of very prominent, and quite devout customers running away and adopting other software that, at least as advertised, might appear inferior?

What's your take on all of this?

As I'm here on behalf of my business at the moment I can't get into anything that could cause legal issues down the track so I have to be careful about replying to a paragraph with as much vitriol as that - whether it's deserved or no. But to answer the underlying question, I've occassionally seen erratic/unpredictable vendors, whether individuals or companies, and it always comes down to a balancing of the trouble that causes versus the utility of their products, when compared to alternative vendors/products.

I've seen vendors behave in an incredibly odd way when going through transitions too. If indeed all these problems with Hostbill are mostly recent, then it could indeed be (from the POV of someone new to the situation) that they're going through a number of difficult and complex transitions internally, and that everything will settle down eventually.

Alternatively, it could be because of poor management decisions. Hence the question of people with more experience dealing with the vendor over a longer term.

3) Are there known/Have there been any takers for the new pricing model, or even for the presales question fee? What has been the experience

As far as anyone knows, No there has not. One person bought a 5 pack of priority technical support w/guaranteed 18hr responses, and like I pointed out above, they just now reported back saying they received a first response to their issue after only 2 weeks.

That's perhaps most telling. Thanks!

4) Raw installation aside, how smooth/coherent is integration with external systems, and what's the opinions regarding the management and customer experiences?

Raw installation aside? The installation is easy. You create a user account and virtualhost container pointing the DocumentRoot to some dir for that user, upload the zip file, unzip it, and then run the install script at http://sld.tld/install - easy peasy.

Yeah figured the install itself would be pretty straightforward, ta

The ticketing system has had several breakages lately. This makes the customer experience very nice when they are complaining and you have no idea because those tickets are importing.

Is the ticketing system optional or heavily integrated and difficult to disable? We'd probably want to use our existing ticketing system if possible anyway

Within the client interface, you should open an account w/an existing provider and see for yourself. That's the best way to make a judegment, but suffice it to say that's why most people here were suckered into hostbill.

Thanks, will have a look, though client interface is something that we're not too concerned about with HB, thats' something that looks pretty mature and slick from what I can tell.

The accounting system in hostbill is all screwed up. people report their projected income as being off by somewhere between 20 and 50% on average.

Hmm. Actual reporting is reliable though I hope? Making errors on actual income/service reports and billing invoices would be very very bad.

From an administrative standpoint, there's no fine grained control over staff members for user accounts - it looks like it until you actually take a second look - for example, and only one example, you can't set it up so that a support staff member can *view* accounts and services - they can *edit*.

Odd but ok

plugins break all the time, but it only costs you whatever the going rate is at the time to submit a trouble ticket that might receive a response in two weeks - or not, which is kewl, coz you asked for it when everything said, "don't do it".

I'm used to OSS style projects where "pushing" on a bug can result in requests for money to resolve. It's unusual to charge for the bugfix per se on a paid product though, where the fault lies with the vendor.

Estimates look like crap when you send them to clients, with the line items overwriting other fields and running off the page into infinity. There was a fake bug fix about two months ago - no one's bothered to report that bug again coz what's the point of yet another fake bug fix?

There are a lot of reports surrounding very serious issues of broken templates for order pages and emails that for various reasons can't be customized to an acceptable presentation level for business.

Yeah anything customer-facing is a concern.

The bug tracking system is a joke - it tracks nothing, is a stripped down OSQA like voting system, and even the most pressing bugs at the top are ignored (Go see for yourself here on these forums - hundreds, and I mean hundreds of bugs in a screenshot that accumulated in just over one month - most haven't been addressed in any way, shape, or form). There's no tracking, no commenting on bugs (i.e., You have to open a separate bug report for the same bug), and bugs are seemingly routinely marked as fixed when they're not.

Yeah seen the Big Bug List post

Other than that, it's a really nice platform. And I don't mean that last point facetiously either. vSphere functionality does seem to work for me, although that's not saying much because it's pretty much useless unless you want to limit your users to no console and require them to perform an install based only on one iso image.

We're currently testing the vCloud now, and that seems to work too.

Good to hear that it works. Any glaring holes in feature support I should know about? Full provisioning support or just billing based on external setup?

If you purchase the software at this time, you are prohibited from making several types of modifications to the system that you undoubtedly will want to, and you can't use any third party modules by other developers either.

We'd get a solicitor to check over the license anyway. I'm reasonably certain that the third party module clause for example is unenforceable here unless there's code forcibly preventing it (eg using crypto signing or something)

I do like the interface, and I do like how the customer experience would be if it worked like it is supposed to in many areas.

I think you should buy it - because you want your boss to fire you.

Well I do have a bunch of long service entitlements he'd have to pay if he fired me... hmmm...

Look given the issues around Hostbill, the only reason I'm even entertaining the idea is because they seem to be the only product in the space with any support, let alone first-party support, for vCloud. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't even be here.
TBH I'd like to be able to sit on the project for a few months to see if WHMCS comes out with vCloud support, or if Hostbill stabilizes, but things march on unfortunately.

I get the sense that Hostbill is being run like an FOSS app, but without the upside of FOSS (namely, the open source bit!).

It's actually a real shame that I've not found a comprehensive solution in the FOSS space. Though blesta shows promise, the list of available modules is quite short at the moment (although if it comes to the crunch we may have to go with blesta and fund someone to write a vCloud module and make other necessary patches)

Thankyou though for the effort you took in your detailed response - there's a lot of useful info you've given me.

[electric]

I can answer this question for you very easily and succinctly:

You are an idiot if you spend even $100 to purchase hostbill.  You are going to get yourself fired if you recommend hostbill to your boss. 

If you want to know *why* I am making this reply, you have merely to spend some time going through recent posts in these forums.  Here are my reasons in a nutshell:

1. The owner of Hostbill is one of the biggest fools I have never met.  He lacks even the smallest shred of any kind of business common sense, has no respect for his customers, and the concept of "ethics" and "morals" are completely foreign to him. 

2. The hostbill software itself does not work reliably, and anyone who trusts their business to this software is going to suffer a lot of disappointment and stress when every update breaks something new.

3. There is no regression testing at all.  This is why every new release breaks something new, or re-breaks something that was "fixed" previously. 

4. There is absolutely no communication from the owner of Hostbill.  None.  Ever. 

5. The only people you will find who "recommend" hostbill are the ones who spent a lot of money on it and simply can't afford to lose that investment, so they are trying to convince themselves it's worth it and that maybe things will improve.

If you purchase and use hostbill, I expect it won't be long before we see you posting similar warning messages to the next sucker who comes along with your same questions.

PS - Note that I did not say anything about the look and feel of hostbill?  This is because I think it looks really nice.  It is, in fact, the *only* positive thing I can say about Hostbill.

[The1stImmortal]

Actually $100 for a perpetual license of anything that supported vCloud at this point I'd do in a heartbeat. Even if it was only useful for a month or two. Compared to VSPP+SPLA+hardware etc etc,  $100 is trivial.

I have pretty much ruled out Hostbill at this point though.

I'm not entirely sure why there's so much hostility in replies to me though. I understand the frustration with the vendor but it's puzzling why there's a strong current of aggression against someone just asking some questions?

I think I'll have to keep an eye on things and should HB change direction for the better I may reexamine it. In the meantime I'll probably go with WHMCS and watch Blesta carefully, unless anyone's got any other suggestions

Thanks folks!

[Lawrence]

I'm not entirely sure why there's so much hostility in replies to me though. I understand the frustration with the vendor but it's puzzling why there's a strong current of aggression against someone just asking some questions?

Thanks folks!

HostBill has left a lot of it's users with a sense of frustration and dismay, so it's naturally left a negative vibe that's rippling through the community. If you do happen to give HostBill a shot though, I'll be happy to help you get started. Add me on Skype: sociallarry if you do.

[electric]

Exactly.  The reason I am so strongly against Hostbill, and will do everything in my power to educate anyone asking about Hostbill is because the Hostbill owner has effectively stolen from me.  He has treated me, a paying customer, as if I don't exist and am nothing more than a one-time cash cow who is to be milked for as much $$ as possible before being slaughtered and then butchered for even more $$.

When the Hostbill owner treats me like that, my response is to try and make sure nobody else suffers from the Hostbill owner's sense of entitlement and superiority.

[Patrick]

Exactly.  The reason I am so strongly against Hostbill, and will do everything in my power to educate anyone asking about Hostbill is because the Hostbill owner has effectively stolen from me.  He has treated me, a paying customer, as if I don't exist and am nothing more than a one-time cash cow who is to be milked for as much $$ as possible before being slaughtered and then butchered for even more $$.

When the Hostbill owner treats me like that, my response is to try and make sure nobody else suffers from the Hostbill owner's sense of entitlement and superiority.

Well let's not forget KBKP also cut ANY recurring income he'd ever get by removing annual renewals :s   It may SAY it offers these things but it's a true gamble to buy and try it.  So many reports of things broken for a lot of people and if it's a big enough bug, it takes a year to fix it.  OnAPP metered bandwidth was a bug for as long as i can remember.  We dropped onapp so i don't know if it was ever fixed.  If a reputable company bought Hostbill and reinvented itself, the software would absolutely rock the market from top to bottom.

Unfortunately, KBKP is running Hostbill in to the ground trying to make as much $$ as quickly as possible.  When a business stops any form of recurring revenue to sustain their business (Server costs, you know, costs to feed one self or family) then you have to question the ethics behind the business.  I think you're getting the responses you are because no one wants you or anyone sucked in to the Hostbll mes at it's current state.  It needs far more structure, regression testing and then some before helping them justify the moves they've made.

[tallship]

the Hostbill owner has effectively stolen from me.  He has treated me, a paying customer, as if I don't exist and am nothing more than a one-time cash cow who is to be milked for as much $$ as possible before being slaughtered and then butchered for even more $$.

That's the main gist that the OP needs to pay attention to, while the final nail in the coffin was when kbkp turned around and put in place a (legally) unenforceable clause into their license for new customers that prohibits them from using ANY third party modules.

There have been assertions by some that kbkp/HostBill horizons are bright, but yet they only become more bleak as time goes on. Such rumors at this late stage in the game are only taken as hyperbole, however, since it really is one of those Jerry MacGuire thangs - "Show me the money".

Anyone can say, or relate somehow through privileged communications, that things are going to improve, but they've only gotten worse despite such back-channel communications in the recent past, so only real, tangible, and empirical evidence to support such is going to be taken with even a grain of salt - No offense to Lawrence, because most of us here would indeed prefer to laud the exceptional potential that the software once had.

[Patrick]

Anyone can say, or relate somehow through privileged communications, that things are going to improve, but they've only gotten worse despite such back-channel communications in the recent past, so only real, tangible, and empirical evidence to support such is going to be taken with even a grain of salt - No offense to Lawrence, because most of us here would indeed prefer to laud the exceptional potential that the software once had.

That's what i find adds insult to injury is the priviledged can speak with "the one and only" and know how "awesome" the future looks.  So i'm glad one person knows and we get *hints* like we're puppies looking for a treat.  Again no offence Lawrence.  Nothing against you but i really dislike the  "hints"  If something was planned, he has a blog to use as a medium to speak to his customers.  Unfortunately he chooses the more fortunate to pass along gossip.

[thetrusteeco]

Hello The1stImmortal,

My companies run WHMCS and HostBill.  I'm not happy with either right now, but 100% recommend WHMCS over HostBill.  IMO if you recommend buying HostBill after researching it, you should be fired (and almost certainly will be).  If you don't understand why you are getting hostile answers to your innocent question, buy HostBill and find out.

If you need VMware support, contact

Code (http://www.modulesgarden.com/) Select Expand

ModulesGarden and get a 3rd Party WHMCS app from them.  I understand they are planing to release one in the next couple months anyway, and that should run you about $100 (onetime/owned).  My company uses their Apps and they are great.  Note: As a new customer to HostBill, you cannot buy/use Third Party Apps for HostBill.  You must use KBKP's Apps, even if they don't work.

Back to WHMCS vs. HostBill:
I prefer HostBill in many ways.  If KBKP had not have locked out 3rd Party developers a few months back, it would be what I'm recommending now, but they did, and HostBill is now EOL.  They do not offer any decent support anymore, they do not fix critical bugs, and most tellingly: THEY DO NOT OFFER A REFUND!

[The1stImmortal]

Thanks thetrusteco - already been in touch with Konrad @ ModulesGarden and they reckon about $1.5-3k and a couple of months to get a vCloud module running, depending on feature set, which isn't too bad actually (considering). At this point that's pretty much the option I'll be taking to the boss, as it's either WHMCS + custom devel or hostbill + obscenely priced modules + vendor instability for not too different an end price

Thanks all folks though!

[Lawrence]

Back to WHMCS vs. HostBill:
I prefer HostBill in many ways.  If KBKP had not have locked out 3rd Party developers a few months back, it would be what I'm recommending now, but they did, and HostBill is now EOL.  They do not offer any decent support anymore, they do not fix critical bugs, and most tellingly: THEY DO NOT OFFER A REFUND!

That's actually illegal and I'm going to be making a post regarding this soon.

By "Illegal" I mean by the laws of the European Union and Poland. There is a big one Kris is breaking right now with his Terms of Service.

No offense to Lawrence, because most of us here would indeed prefer to laud the exceptional potential that the software once had.

Again no offence Lawrence.  Nothing against you but i really dislike the  "hints"  If something was planned, he has a blog to use as a medium to speak to his customers.  Unfortunately he chooses the more fortunate to pass along gossip.

No offense taken. I'm given "Grand" information only for it to be twisted in the last minute. It's like one of the Kris's makes a decision, and the other Kris presses the red button and says "NO I WANT IT THIS WAY" - That's what I think is happening now. I'm likely wrong in that assumption, but regardless that's what it feels like.

[thetrusteeco]

That's actually illegal and I'm going to be making a post regarding this soon.

By "Illegal" I mean by the laws of the European Union and Poland. There is a big one Kris is breaking right now with his Terms of Service.

Great, hopefully it makes one of the Krises say to the other "Hmmm... maybe one of our policies might be wrong..."
Honestly though, with what's happened in the past 6 months, it'll take years for a Third Party Market place to get going now.

No offense taken. I'm given "Grand" information only for it to be twisted in the last minute. It's like one of the Kris's makes a decision, and the other Kris presses the red button and says "NO I WANT IT THIS WAY" - That's what I think is happening now. I'm likely wrong in that assumption, but regardless that's what it feels like.

That would explain almost everything that happens at KBKP.