Custom Development? How much?

[nibb]

Does someone know much Hostbill is charging for a custom module?

If so, would someone jump in to make a piggy bank for things you need? Split costs between all of us? Of course we need to know an estimate for this.

[Lawrence]

That's actually a great idea... Custom development paid for by the communitiy and everyone uses the module.

- edit

I still think development should be open to the general public though for third party modules. (Sorry if it's a bit off topic)

[nibb]

You better hide this from Kris, because if he finds out, maybe he charges 10 times as much.

Also, does he release custom development modules for everyone once developed?

Because lets, say I pay one, and then I see him selling it to others, I would be feel that I paid the development. Of course in the case of community one, I don´t have a problem since we all paid, but you get my point, it would be not fair then him selling it 199$ again for everyone. Only the contractor should get it unless he is making a huge discount if he can then release it as its own product.

If you hire someone for custom development, its your product, he cannot released it for sales, and code must be open.

If we all put a few bucks, we could make it to what ever he is asking. Since im sure one person alone would be able to pay what ever sum he asks, if he is already asking 99$ just for contacting him.

[Danny]

Hi, here are the last information that i have for creating a Module:


Hi Danny,

We can do this as paid service

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Custom Development Services starts from $1000 (5 hours of development).
This is the lowest budget we start any custom development.

Our hourly rate is $195.

Domain modules usually take: 5-10 hours.
Provisioning/hosting modules usually take: 5-10 hours.
Payment modules usually take: max 5 hours.

AND

Hi Danny,

Just for you: $975 (5h of custom dev).


edit:

this was a offer for my domain registrar. They have paid this! and they get the source code from kris, this was the agreement for creating this module.

This Modul is added for all and is for free included. If there is any issue my domain registrar can fix it because they have the sourcecode.

[nibb]

Those rates are way to expensive if you ask me but....

So he earns like 2000$ in one day? Based on the hours it takes him to develop and his hourly rates, he thinks he is worth 2000$ per day....

To be honest, his code has some very amateur bugs sometimes...

So if you pay custom development he releases it for free for everyone? That does not make sense. In particular because you paid for it. And modules are encoded, if you paid they should be full source code.

So we can expect more or less 2000$ per module correct?

I guess if everyone puts 100$, with 20 people we could achieve this.

Or 8 people if each one puts 250$.

[Danny]

You can decide between module available for all or just for you. If you take the option just for you, you get no bugfixes for free what means, if you need a bugfix from kris you have to pay for this.

If you decided that the modul is available for all users than kris will fix bugs for free. That are the Infomationen that i have from the last order for creating a modul.

Here are some original text of my ticket:

Hi Danny,

Some modules has been included into release after being custom developed- but our customers agreed on to adding it into relase version.
so what we can do is sponsored dev (module built for you but added into release version as we will support it in future), or custom dev (module for you only, each future update requires separate custom quote)

Kris has give my domain registrar the source without encryption!!! He has no problem to give the source without the encryption:

Hi Danny,

>They ask if they can have the modul that you create without encryption .....
Sure

i think it is a good idea to collecting money from some people for a module and if we also have the sourcecode we can fix a issue if we found some bugs ;-)

[Patrick]

Those rates are way to expensive if you ask me but....

So he earns like 2000$ in one day? Based on the hours it takes him to develop and his hourly rates, he thinks he is worth 2000$ per day....

To be honest, his code has some very amateur bugs sometimes...

So if you pay custom development he releases it for free for everyone? That does not make sense. In particular because you paid for it. And modules are encoded, if you paid they should be full source code.

So we can expect more or less 2000$ per module correct?

I guess if everyone puts 100$, with 20 people we could achieve this.

Or 8 people if each one puts 250$.

I like your initiative but not going to justify his over priced behavior at $2000 (aprox of course).  You can hire a developer anywhere and it'll be less then half of that and they offer support, questions, bug fixes after it's complete.  We would be feeding his ego by gathering together to purchase this (Even though it's a great idea) i simply cannot justify dumping anymore cash in to this software right now.  We all look like amateurs for trusting this software at this moment in time.  No business that is worth their salt would risk one penny.

Until they smarten up, I couldn't join this with you. 

If they smarten up, you can absolutely count me in. 

Edit:

I should mention that since most of us purchased long before 4.6 we can still develop third party using the API by as i said a 3rd party developer hired by all of us.  It'd be cheaper than asking my guys to do it lol

[nibb]

I agree with your Patrick, getting another developer would be cheaper, but Hostbill knows it software around better than anyone else. With the lack of documentation and having to give someone access to your install, until they know how Hostbill works, etc.

I would actually be dumb enough to pay Hostbill to do this, in particular if then its released for the rest and he will fix future bugs for free.

I mean, its not such a terrible idea either, spending 100$ or 200$, getting a module you need, and then having bugs fixed in the future. Also, like with any module, it will require updates and changes in the future.

I mean, if we all in the community make a piggy bank, the more people are into it, if you think about it, it would cost us very cheap, vs paying an external freelancer.

Imagine if we get 30+ people on board, its less than 60$ per head, and what freelancer would do this for 60$?

My guess is that its not such a terrible idea. Also in the long run, if hostbill is gone, or has financial problem, it will hurt everyone of us here. If some of us had a choice, we would not be even posting in this forums and personally I would be long gone. The truth is that we still use the software, so giving Kris or hostbill some more incomes, will at least keep at live for the time.

We need to be smart here, we don´t really have another option. If we do, please post, because Blesta, is far from done, and what ever we like it or not. Hostbill development is ultra fast. This release contains at least 4 bug fixes I reported last week, and it has again 3 new big features, 2 order pages and 1 pingdom module.

Even if they are extra, the option is there, in case you need it. I also like the bug tracker module and some other things, I mean, having all integrated in one database and software is very comfortable, instead of having to use tons of separated softwares.

I don´t want to spend more in hostbill, but do we have a choice? Is there any other platform right now that can do or has the same features? Also, to be honest, Hostbill did respected old agreements so far, modules, orderpages, etc, are there for us. We are also allowed to develop modules, and updates prices are respected so far. While he is an idiot, at least he does seem to act on some community pressure. To be honest, I don´t care what kind of idiot he is, if he keeps up with the bugs fixes and development. This is better, than having a basic software, that takes 1 year to release 2 new features, and where you can contact them all day and receive always promises on things that will be build in the future. At least here we have the choice, even if its going to cost money.

[Patrick]

Hey i'm good for your idea, problem is this - Until KBKP get's their act straight, metaphorically flushing money down their EGO will not encourage positive change.  Community gathers together and pledges $100 a person or as you said 30 people for $2000 = $66.60 a person, it's allowing him to think his new model is a success when it really isn't. 

I don't agree with releasing something we all pay for for everybody, as long as we get the source, we can fix it.  I think it would have to be something private, that others who didn't contribute, do not get access to.  Like i said, your idea is great, especially of each of us get a copy of  the decrypted source, we could help each other with bug fixes, i simply dislike the idea of feeding their ego. 

[nibb]

Hey i'm good for your idea, problem is this - Until KBKP get's their act straight, metaphorically flushing money down their EGO will not encourage positive change.  Community gathers together and pledges $100 a person or as you said 30 people for $2000 = $66.60 a person, it's allowing him to think his new model is a success when it really isn't. 

I don't agree with releasing something we all pay for for everybody, as long as we get the source, we can fix it.  I think it would have to be something private, that others who didn't contribute, do not get access to.  Like i said, your idea is great, especially of each of us get a copy of  the decrypted source, we could help each other with bug fixes, i simply dislike the idea of feeding their ego.

I don't agree either with releasing it everyone, if only 20 paid. If that is the route we go, why should we benefit others that never paid, or even hostbill selling it then for 199$ a piece, a software we paid.

If that is the route, I would prefer that each person gets the code, if someone wants to give it away or share, thats their problem them...

[Patrick]

I don't agree either with releasing it everyone, if only 20 paid. If that is the route we go, why should we benefit others that never paid, or even hostbill selling it then for 199$ a piece, a software we paid.

If that is the route, I would prefer that each person gets the code, if someone wants to give it away or share, thats their problem them...

Absolutely.  I'd also have one of us draft up an agreement they have to sign that no part of our custom development may be released or otherwise resold at anytime.  We hold the rights to the custom code during and after it's completion.

[nibb]

Well I need a module for PRTG, similar to the pingdom one but more advanced. I need to offer some services and customers monitoring and access to data from my cluster.

I already did some basic integration in my own, since its very open in terms of API, etc, but I would need something integrated into hostbill which is able to charge them for sensors.

If someone wants to jump in, I will put 100$ to 300$ depending on features. If I had time or actually was a developer I would do this on my own, but im not a developer or coder, so it would take me ages to make something properly. I would be happy with something basic, then go from there on.

[tallship]

I agree with your Patrick, getting another developer would be cheaper,

And better too. You can hold a third party developer with ethical standards to a level of care that includes bug fixes, without even having to worry about that - it's part of the contract. You're also entitled to be the copyright holder when you contract for such services, and should put that into your contract.

And you can still offer it for free here to all users who own HostBill via the HostBillForums.com software download center (which hasn't been created yet, but it sure sounds nice) - including updates. Now that's a worthwhile investment model for people to pool their money into collectively, and get software that actually fricken' works, from people who you can actually call on the phone, and actually respond to emails, and will actually support updates to the software, and will actually rise to the occasion of addressing bug issues in the software.

Hiring kbkp to do anything is just plain Stupid!

I would actually be dumb enough to pay Hostbill to do this, in particular if then its released for the rest and he will fix future bugs for free.

The nature of a swindler does not change. Ask any head shrinker. Heck, ask Dr. Phil LOL! kbkp's historical record of fixing bugs for free is horrendous!

He's already ripped off @Paul and the rest of us. @Paul especially: http://www.hostbillforums.com/index.php/topic,119.msg877.html#msg877 and you're saying you want to give him more money to rip you off again, release broken software to you, and NOT fix it?

Yes, that would be dumb - The only scenario I will monetarily support is development via our own collective in-house devs or 3rd party developers.

No offense Nibb, but I certainly hope you're NOT "...dumb enough to pay Hostbil to do this".

Kindest regards,

[tallship]

I don't agree with releasing something we all pay for for everybody, as long as we get the source, we can fix it.  I think it would have to be something private, that others who didn't contribute, do not get access to.

If that's how you feel Patrick, and it is certainly your prerogative, then it is a perfectly acceptable policy, and no one can fault you for it.

However, consider this....

Making it available to everyone under an Artistic, or GPL'd license (I actually prefer the Artistic License myself) means that there is a greater likelyhood that more people (IMO) will contribute. You don't have to believe that, but we see the evidence all around us, and really, you got what you wanted, and the fact that you shared it will probably cascade into other people sharing the code they funded with you under the same or similar circumstances.

Or, you could set up a software store under Blesta, HostBill, WHMCS, and a myriad of other systems, including many major affiliate systems out there, where the software could be had for really really cheap (and I mean really cheap, like say, 10 bucks), and make your investment back 100 fold.

Under the GPL, you can even charge money for distributing the software, and/or recouping your costs involved for getting that free software to people - i.e., you can charge people for access to download the GPL'd software you comissioned in the first place.

Can those people give it away to others? Sure they can. Can they charge for their costs involved in making it available  for distribution? Sure they can. But the cows do come home, and people who fork your software (and merge the changes back into your git repos) will also be providing benefits to you that cost you nothing.

I personally have no problem with pooling together with folks at twenty bucks a pop to commission software development that will be GPL'd, which I could then make available for a modest distribution fee of say 5 or ten bucks. There's nothing wrong with that.

People could get extra modules for 5 or 10 dollars that kbkp would charge 200 dollars for, and be buggy - and you would be beholden unto kbkp to fix it. It's a proven fact that the overwhelming amount of people who get their software that way have a tendency to share their improvements back with the community from which they received it, passing it on for others to affect more enhancements.

Just thought I would throw that out there

[Patrick]

And better too. You can hold a third party developer with ethical standards to a level of care that includes bug fixes, without even having to worry about that - it's part of the contract. You're also entitled to be the copyright holder when you contract for such services, and should put that into your contract.

And you can still offer it for free here to all users who own HostBill via the HostBillForums.com software download center (which hasn't been created yet, but it sure sounds nice) - including updates. Now that's a worthwhile investment model for people to pool their money into collectively, and get software that actually fricken' works, from people who you can actually call on the phone, and actually respond to emails, and will actually support updates to the software, and will actually rise to the occasion of addressing bug issues in the software.

Hiring kbkp to do anything is just plain Stupid!

The nature of a swindler does not change. Ask any head shrinker. Heck, ask Dr. Phil LOL! kbkp's historical record of fixing bugs for free is horrendous!

He's already ripped off @Paul and the rest of us. @Paul especially: http://www.hostbillforums.com/index.php/topic,119.msg877.html#msg877 and you're saying you want to give him more money to rip you off again, release broken software to you, and NOT fix it?

Yes, that would be dumb - The only scenario I will monetarily support is development via our own collective in-house devs or 3rd party developers.

No offense Nibb, but I certainly hope you're NOT "...dumb enough to pay Hostbil to do this".

Kindest regards,

Which is exactly why i stated it's silly to feed in to their ego any further.  They closed off 3rd party dev, now paying them to justify the close ended side of the business only gives them further justification to their actions on some of the silliest business practices i've seen in some time.  Aside from XBOX ONE "Always on camera", but that's a whole other story.  Unless KBKP signed a contract with an outlined done date with  us holding full copyrights to the custom work and if it is ever resold by them or released with the software they can be held liable for all estimated damages based on their advertised customer base.

So we commission a $2,000 module x their "over 2000 businesses" as they advertise on the front page that would equal in excess of $4,000,0000 (4 million in projected losses).  Unless they signed a contract, i along with others i don't think would feel comfortable with the idea.  Good idea nonetheless, but not with a dodgy company without a binding contract.

If that's how you feel Patrick, and it is certainly your prerogative, then it is a perfectly acceptable policy, and no one can fault you for it.

However, consider this....

<<snipped??

Hey i'm all for GPL and all, but not by KBKP releasing something and it depends on the uniqueness of what would be developed and it's level of complexity etc.  I'm an open source kinda guy, but i simply do not want KBKP having a single cent out of it.